"Thanks!" to Sarah who not only shared her encounter with sizing at her local J.Crew, but raised an important discussion.I visited the J.Crew in Boston to check out the Dorrie skirt IRL. I thumbed through all the skirts on the floor, found only smaller sizes, and noticed I wasn't finding any perfect shirts in 14s either, so I asked an SA whether they had 14s hiding anywhere. What follows is the SA's response, "Um...I'm not saying you're big or anything, but we don't actually carry that size in-store, it's more... unusual." WTF. I know J.Crew caters to a younger demographic than the "average woman", but when the average size in the US is a 14, I'd say it's a bit ridiculous not to carry it. Plus, it's considered regular sizing, not plus sizing, so what's the deal?? Is this the nation wide policy now for J.Crew? I am floored.Unfortunately, I have heard similar stories of J.Crew no longer intending to carry sizes 12 and up in their brick & mortar (B&M) stores. J.Crew even limited the sizing available for certain items (refer to last year's "The Latest On J.Crew Sizes {for now anyways} ;)" post.)
Honestly, I don't understand J.Crew's logic. It's one thing if you want to reduce inventory, but it makes little sense (to me anyways) to not carry them at all in all sizes and in B&M stores. At the very least, offer free shipping & returns for the sizes you choose to no longer offer in stores (including petites and tall). This way customers can still try on without penalty.
What are your thoughts on this news? Have you encountered limited sizing at your local J.Crew store?
I have been a LOYAL J. Crew customer for years and if it is their intention to tell me that they don't really want me as a customer in their stores (What? Do I embarrass you, J.Crew, with my size 14-ness???), then my message for them is, "You embarrass yourself J. Crew and I won't shop through your catalog OR online anymore!!" No secret shopping for me.
ReplyDeleteI am sometimes frustrated that my size is not available in store but at the same time, I have to admit, I don't really get the very angry almost indignant and personally offended responses people have to a store not carrying their size. As if they are calling you fat or on the flip side, skeletal. I think a lot of times we are hurt by such comments and so believe that that's what this BUSINESS is trying to tell us. But I highly doubt that's the case. I highly doubt J.Crew is trying to make some sort of statement about the smallest or largest sizes in their lineup.
ReplyDeletePeople tend to forget that at the end of the day, it is a business. Behind the scenes there are people crunching numbers and analyzing sales data and trends. They have most likely determined that it is not profitable to carry these sizes in stores where it takes up precious inventory space. For every frustrated size 00 or size 14 shopper who doesn't buy from J.Crew anymore, they have two more "popular"-sized ladies becoming fans because they see their sizes readily available in stores. It's just reality.
I do like the idea of offering free shipping or store transfer services for sizes that are not carried in stores. It's a good compromise. But it would take consumers to actually care and write in with this type of feedback.
I thought that you could use the red phone for free shipping if the item you want is not available in the store. I realize red phone free shipping is only for FP merch but perhaps a good PS could help with sale items as well. If you are able to get to a B&M to shop then you could also return it there without shipping charges although I do understand you are not riding a magic carpet to the store and some expense and effort is involved.
ReplyDeleteFrustrating! But I can see both sides. On the one hand, sz 14 is not plus size, so why not carry it? I'm sure it drives a lot of business away by not offering all the standard sizes in the B&Ms. It does seem like J Crew is sending some type of subliminal message that they don't want certain sizes to be shopping in the store, and that just seems wrong. Aren't most “average” people are somewhere between sz.10-14? Shouldn’t that be the sizes stores have the largest inventory of? I don’t care what image J Crew is trying to portray. You can’t sell an image to an empty store.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, I do want to believe there is a reason for certain stores to carry or not carry certain sizes (although with J Crew you never know…). Yes, it is stereotyping, but I know demographics of a region influence what sizes a store carries. I live in a region that has one of the highest rates of obesity in the county, and you couldn't find a size 0 to 6 in most stores to save your life. No judgment or insult intended, but they just wouldn't sell. Period.
I’m not saying that makes it ok, but if the bottom line is selling, a store has to carry the sizes that sell. Is it fair? No. Does it hurt feeling on both ends of the spectrum? Yes. Do the care? ...I hear money has no feelings.
It seems the middle ground would be that if a store doesn’t carry the full range of sizes, it should offer free shipping/free returns on those items regardless of whether or not the item is FP, sale, or clearance. Same with Tall, Petite sizing, and shoes. I would bet doing something like that would go a long way with the customers J Crew is obviously alienating. And in the long run they would probably make more money in sales than they are losing in shipping. Just my .02 cents.
J.Crew is mentally retarded when they come up with this stuff.
ReplyDeleteI've read that Michelle Obama is size 10-12. She's not a 0 by any means, but she is full figured. So by J.Crew standards, she wouldn't be able to find her size in the DC store.
Nice going, J.Crew, you truly are run by a team of idiots.
sub
ReplyDeleteI agree with what other folks are saying that it's a business, but the point is that many women are in fact a size 12 or 14. It may be an "unusual size" for J.Crew's target aspirational demographic but it's not an unusual size for the average American woman.
ReplyDeleteIt's a little bit like saying that petite (<5'4") women are "unusual" but the average height of a US woman is 5'4".
In the short term perhaps J.Crew wouldn't sell that many of these sizes if they carried them in stores, because women who are these sizes think that they can't shop there and so never go in.
And I TOTALLY AGREE that if you don't carry a size in your B&M store, you damn well better not charge me shipping for it! Charging me extra me for not being your perfect 5'8" size 6 is just ridiculous.
This is totally like the Mean Girls movie...the 1-3-5 store. They call it that because those are the only sizes they carry.
ReplyDeleteOMG, it just dawned on me that J.Crew, is in fact, a MEAN GIRL.
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ReplyDeletesame thing with petites, sometimes you just want to try the clothes on and in more than one size. just stupid. If they dont want to carry it just dont have it available. And is size 14 so unusual?
ReplyDeleteMost times the sales rack in the B&M
ReplyDeleteis filled with small sizes over any others. The occasional 14 is also available.
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ReplyDeletesize 14? where I live I don't see too many women shopping j.crew that are size 14.
ReplyDeleteSorry to hear but that's just the unfortunate downside of a business. It's like how I can't find clothes that fit my slim frame, and it's not like I'm H&M thin either.
Sarah you could always diet. It'll prolong your life.
I have the opposite experience as Penny at my B&M. There are rarely any smaller sizes on the sale racks. They are all Medium and Large so I think it really depends on where you live. I rarely shop in the store anymore though. The main reason is the 30 day return policy, then add to that the fact that they usually are sold out of my size in the items I want so there really isn't a reason for me to visit anymore. Now I mainly shop online and return through the mail.
ReplyDeleteAt least they don't charge an extra $4-$20 for a size 14 the way they do for a men's large-tall.
ReplyDelete--->Sarah you could always diet. It'll prolong your life.
ReplyDeleteReally? How rude of you to say. Take your comments with you and LEAVE.
This is a really frustrating issue for me. I have a very hard time finding pants that fit well. So, I wear skirts a *lot*. And, J. Crew's pencil skirts fit me well. The only problem is that they do not offer size 14s in store. I don't have a problem ordering online, it is just frustrating when they don't offer a 14 in a skirt like the no.2 Cotton Double Serge Pencil Skirt in an in-store only color (bright dahlia), or a skirt like the new tweed one with the exposed zipper, or the vine pencil skirt......I could go on and on.....And, what is even more puzzling is that the no.2 pencil skirt comes in a 14 in all the other colors offered.
ReplyDeleteI also rarely purchase in-store. Not so much because of the sizes, but because of the return policy and shopworn items. Also, it always seems like the items I'm most interested in are .com only. I'd rather buy online and return by mail.
ReplyDeleteI can see how this is a feedback loop - I can't find my size at JCrew, so I won't go in there to shop. Therefore, they don't think any women of that size shop there.
ReplyDeleteSo, sure, it is business - but they also don't make a lot of their clothes in size 14, let alone have them in stores. What's always befuddle me, though - there's always X-Large tops and sweaters. So why not tops?
Also remember that part of their business, right now, seems to be based on trying to be more high-fashion - and guess what? Designers don't really offer 12-14s either, and some have openly admitted they do not want "fat" women in their clothes, because it's not how they want to brand themselves. They want the "right" people wearing their clothes. If, like FFM said, you only see thinner women shopping in the store, their logic is that other thinner women will say, "oh, they make clothes for *me*"
Women come in all shapes and sizes, and there's no way to cater towards everyone. But, I'm sorry, when you eliminate a size altogether, one known to be the "average" for women in your target country, there is a little bit more than business behind that.
I don't understand the marketing strategy that aims at shrinking, rather than broadening, the customer base at a time when the economy is shrinking not growing. Have I missed the forecast that taller short-waisted slender people will return to prosperity before the rest of the country? Because I find it hard to believe that a company that can't keep track of what's in its warehouses or on its website, or makes its SAs call around to other stores to find something when a simple click would locate it, has really great number-crunchers. Otherwise we wouldn't be seeing all these markdowns, on site and instore. Yes, markdowns.
ReplyDeleteIn the updated (last year) edition of The Preppy Handbook, the authors go to great lengths to make the point that "preppy" no longer means snobby or "exclusive". Rather, the 21st-century preppy is an open-minded achiever in his/her chosen field, be it charitable or professional work, sports or art, and gives back (this is in the part before they get to the clothes). And, dears, no matter how selective the perks, how restricted the access to certain items or events, how quirky the sizing, JCrew is a store, not a 1950's country club. If you want better-looking customers, make more flattering clothes.
Gracious, my word verification is "selah". See? You should listen.
Ummmmmm.....if someone were dumb enough to say such an ignorant thing to my face, I'm pretty sure it would take everything I had not to assault them right then and there! HOW RUDE!
ReplyDeleteThe OP should report the employee immediately. Unbelievable.
Aside from that, there is this crazy little option called size/pack optimization, which analyzes historical data and can parcel out to certain stores only the sizes that will actually sell through at full price. Imagine that.
I'm guessing they'd sell more 14s and 16s than they do Tall sizes.
And....omg, I see we have another Elaine here. Well, this will be interesting, trying to tell who's who, because the previous post was not from me.
How the heck do I change how my name shows up here? It's linked to my Google account! Urgh.
Wow, I can see this discussion turning ugly fast!
ReplyDeleteI have always been at the smaller end of the size spectrum. At 37 years old and after having a baby, I actually need a size 4-6 in skirts and pants and a 2-4 in tops. While I would love to be a few pounds lighter as in my 20s, I have a much easier time now than I did in finding clothing when I was thinner. Even now, I sometimes need an xs and the smallest size carried in stores will be a small or an xs or small in petite (I don't need shorter, in most cases, just narrower).
However, I recognize that it is just a business decision that stores don't always have what I need in stock. It is my understanding from several articles I have read over the years that sizes 6-10 sell the best and the stores would rather have those sizes go to clearance than the smaller and larger sizes that might not sell as quickly.
I have had to adjust my shopping to target retailers that seem to design and buy for my body type and size. I am unable to go in most lingerie stores and purchase the 32A bra I need or shop at most shoe stores and buy the 8.5 narrow shoes I have to have. But I do know that certain stores do choose to cater to a younger and smaller market (Aerie makes great smaller and affordable bras and Cole Haan and Tory Burch shoes run narrow).
Sure, I would like to always be able to walk out of all my local B&Ms with my size in hand, but I can understand the retailers' reasoning. But they do need to offer free shipping and the same discounts on the more unusual sizes.
I have never understood why people get so uppity about this. Stores cannot carry every size. There is no way J.Crew can carry from a 00-14 (or even 16 or 20) and have the variety of inventory we have all come to expect.
ReplyDeleteThough I am on the opposite end of the spectrum (they often don't make or carry something small enough for me), I understand that they cannot cater to everyone and I order what I couldn't buy in store online. It is not that hard. The red phone gives you free shipping and returns are free in store, so it isn't going to cost you any extra.
Yes, it is slightly frustrating to wait for something and yes, it would be nice if I could just pick something up, but J.Crew is a business.
I don't think J.Crew is out to get me or is embarrassed by me because I wear a 00 sometimes. They are just going to carry what sells, period.
I actually have the opposite problem a lot of times, especially when browsing the sale rack. There have been many times where there are only sizes in the upper end of the range (including up to 14/XL).
ReplyDeleteHowever, I'm more offended by her comment to you personally. Unfortunately, I've run into that so much in a lot of the Boston area stores (Natick and Copley Place especially).
I have absolutely no bone in this fight, but I just wanted to clarify the statistics of size - Yes, the Average size in the US is a 14. That does NOT mean it is the most common size. The U.S female population is actually bi-modal in terms of size (just a refresher, mode is the most frequently found number in a sample, mean is the average). The two most common sizes, as of last year, were 8 and 20. One of which J.Crew carries in every store, and one that is plus size. If you divide those by 2, you will get 14 which, according to industry folks, is a relatively rare size. That is likely the statistical decision making guiding this.
ReplyDeleteI read an article in the WSJ ages ago (I looked for it online but couldn't find it - sorry!) that talked about how a lot of stores don't carry larger and smaller sizes because they don't sell very well. And the reason they don't sell very well is because it's really hard to take something that was designed in a size 4 and just make it larger or smaller. In order for the article of clothing to fit a different size properly seams need to change, biases need to be made etc etc which results in basically a whole different design for the clothing article.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I can agree that it would be really frustrating to want an article of clothing and not be able to find it in a store (I'm 5'2 so I've been there!), I thought the article was an interesting viewpoint. Before I read it I had just assumed that these stores didn't want larger individuals wearing their clothes.
C_schmear - I looked for that article too! It also referenced the statistics I mention. Couldn't find it. Maybe I will see if I can get it from Lexis Nexis and C& P it here...(after my meeting)
ReplyDeleteBeing tall with a tall family, I guess that I have just gotten used to having to buy online and pay shipping. It can be frustrating sometimes, but none of the retailers have carried tall sizes for years so J Crew does not stand out in this regard. It would be a very nice courtesy if they would wave shipping charges or offer store transfers if your size was not available as Lindsay@A Walk in the Closet suggested.
ReplyDeleteWith shorter hemlines the past few seasons and a limited amount of tall sizes, I have had less choices lately. JCrew is still my favorite retailer as far as both fit and styling. I'd love it if there were a few more tall dresses and blazers in their offerings, but I also understand that there is a limited clientele for these sizes.
I have really, really wide feet. If you think it is hard to find clothes for sizes 12 and up, try to find fashionable wide width shoes. Most of the shoes that comfortably fit me are hideous. Some better brands offer a "C" or "D" width as wide, but unfortunately most of these shoes are still too narrow. And, forget about ever finding wide shoes on sale.
ReplyDeleteEven though I comfortably wear size XS - Size 6 in JCrew clothing, I wouldn't even dream of trying on a JCrew shoe other than a flip flop (which sort of fits if I size up).
It is very frustrating, but I've accepted the fact that selling wide width shoes must not be profitable for retailers.
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ReplyDeleteI can totally understand the frustration with this, and find that the SA could have explained it better without sounding offensive.
ReplyDeleteNow, I work in retail (not for JCrew, although that would be awesome), I find that a lot of times any retail stores themselves do not order their own inventory. There is an allocator that looks at the numbers from previous campaigns to see what was sold and not sold, and uses all these numbers to predict what will sell and not sell. So it's totally business oriented.
In reality, the SM and SAs probably know better who is actually coming in and what they are buying. and I'm sure they are frustrated as well, since they probably know how this is going to affect their customers.
So in this case, with certain stores discontinuing having certain sizes in store is probably because the trend doesn't show that those sizes are selling well. And unfortunately, it means that it's not profitable for JCrew.
Now, one thing that I'm fairly sure all retailers want to strive toward is good customer service to all customers. So I don't think it would hurt to give JCrew feedback by calling their customer service number, or having our local SM send back feedback to the higher ups that this is not OK. If JCrew hears that a lot of people are displeased with that decision, they may change their mind.
If they don't hear from us because we are unhappy and do not intend to support them on this and discontinue our regular visits to their stores, the retailers will not hear or see the trends that we want them to hear and see.
I think it's up to us shoppers to make the difference. After all, they are catering to us who are actually buying their products.
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ReplyDeleteDo they carry XL sweaters and tees in the store? Because J Crew's XL sweaters are actually bigger than their size 14.
ReplyDeleteJS, would you explain how it is "uppity" to want a store you frequent to carry your size?
ReplyDeleteJ.Crew has been steadily decreasing the amount of petite styles over the past few years. Right now they really only have a good selection of petite sizes in dresses. I am now unable to purchase J.Crew pants or shirts for the most part. And, I am a petite 8, not a size 00 and right now I am shopping elsewhere.
ReplyDeleteWonder if the extended size ranges for Talbots are contributing to their success and increased popularity with the J.Crew crowd?
Being on the "larger" end of the spectrum, this whole fiasco really makes me angry. Tamara was spot-on with her comments. The reality of this is that J Crew *specifically* targets smaller women to brand their image. How else do you explain that many items are made no larger than an 8, 10 or 12? And don't get me started on the models. Yeah, sure, they used Crystal Wren to model their swimsuits, but that was only *after* she lost a good bit of weight. Oh horrors upon horrors that we should actually see a size 12 model in a swimsuit! (Guess I didn't get that memo about covering up in a mumu...)
ReplyDeleteI'm pear shaped with a 12/14 bottom, and rarely purchase bottoms from J Crew. I refuse to be forced to shop only online since they won't carry 14's (or 16's) in store. We all know that A. You'll get stuck with a final sale purchase that doesn't fit or B. End up paying far more for an online item b/c the store prices are generally lower, especially when something's marked down. So, Gap gets all of my money for pants, skirts, etc, because they haven't chosen to size me out of their clothing. If, indeed, this is the direction they are going, I'll look elsewhere to spend my money.
Christy said...
ReplyDeleteI've read that Michelle Obama is size 10-12. She's not a 0 by any means, but she is full figured. So by J.Crew standards, she wouldn't be able to find her size in the DC store.
Mrs. Obama doesn't look like a 10-12 to me, but certainly not by J. Crew standards. Their vanity sizing is ridiculous. I would expect a true size 10 to wear a J. Crew 6, perhaps an 8.
I deleted my prior lengthy post because I've rethought my feelings about this............
ReplyDeleteI think it's possible that, at least in some B&Ms, the 14's don't sell well and it's legit for them to stop stocking them. It could be a vicious cycle, they used to carry size 14s but the size 14 customer base for the B&Ms is dwindling.
Maybe the size 14 customers don't feel comfortable shopping in a store where their size is the very tip top of what's available.
Maybe the size 14 customers find the size 14 selection so poor (because of insufficient stocking or so many other size 14 customers have wiped out the stock) that they give up in frustration.
Maybe the size 14 customers are made to feel unwanted by clerks or other customers.
Maybe the size 14 customers feel uncomfortable with their size and don't like to shop in any B&Ms, not just J Crew.
I also wonder if most of the size 14s are the "older" customers who just don't get into shopping in the B&Ms any more. I'm one of them. I haven't shopped in a J Crew B&M in years even though there's one just a few miles from me. I much prefer online shopping because I can squeeze it in whenever it fits into my schedule. I buy almost everything online now, not just J Crew stuff. Even including time spent packaging and mailing returns, I find it much more efficient.
So J Crew, I give you a pass on this one.
I think it is interesting to note though that the size 14s and Ls and XLs online are often the first to sell out.
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ReplyDeleteI can empathize. I am not super tall at 5'8" but my legs are very long. Even though you'd think there's not a lot of difference between a tall pant and a regular inseam, I sometimes find that when I guess and order based off of how the regular inseam fits I find I've guessed the wrong size about half the time.
ReplyDeleteThis wouldn't bother me so much if J.Crew offered free shipping on items that are online/catalog only. But they don't so I'm effectively paying just to try something on, which is so annoying. I don't always have time to go to the store to try on the regular inseam, pick up the red phone and order. If I already know it's not going to be at the store I'd rather just click away or call a PS.
This issue extends beyond "special sizes" to me. I'm annoyed by all the online/catalog only items right now. If the fit were consistent across items it wouldn't matter. But since every J.Crew item seems to subscribe to its own sizing chart I need to try each item on to be sure. If they start nailing their sizes consistently again this will be much less of an issue for me.
Thanks for providing this forum to discuss Alexis. Hopefully J.Crew is reading. If they can open a wedding boutique, two men's stores, a collection store and 5 B&Ms in cities like NYC, perhaps they could open a more size-inclusive B&M too?
Everyone: Thanks for sharing your viewpoint on this topic. :)
ReplyDeleteI can understand business-wise that retailers want to maintain certain inventory levels of stock that can move close to regular price. In fact, GAP's biggest problem in the late 90's/ early 2000's (while Mickey Drexler was in charge I believe) was that it didn't have the right inventory (too much of the things that didn't sell & languished on the sale racks, while there was too little of the things that were super popular).
In this case, I am curious why J.Crew doesn't just reduce the inventory of certain sizes instead of eliminating them altogether. This way you can still offer clients those items, while not carrying a lot of stock. I am also surprised that a Boston store (a major city with clients with all shapes and sizes) doesn't carry a greater variety of sizing.
Perhaps there is a financial rationale, but its unclear (to me anyways) as of now.
There are a whole variety of reasons all women come in many different sizes. Some women, even after having had a child, will still require 00 pants and petite jackets. There is also the woman who no matter what she does will always be a size 16, 5'11" tall, with an inseam of 36 inches. Other women will be the lucky ladies who get to go to stores and find their size 8 dresses everywhere, and size 7.5 heels always in stock.
ReplyDeleteI cannot add much to whether or not I personally believe whether a business should carry all sizes, in the end, it is their decision, and in the end we can let them know how we feel by shutting our wallets to them, but I do know that common decency should always be a given. I assume the words the sa said were not well thought out, and I would hope that if she read the words here she would be mortified by how it came out...
When you write something here, you do have the chance to read your words...and wow, sometimes I guess I have too much faith in common human decency. Grrr.
I have one personal thing to add...I have been a size 12 or 14 a few times in my life, including while postpartum. The fact that J. Crew offered them in store WAS the reason I came and became such a devout JCA. It was wonderful for my self-esteem and confidence to find adorable clothing offered in my size, that I could try on!!! All I think when I read this news is Bad Call, J. Crew.
I agree, Alexis. As Fred said earlier, what *is* the point of narrowing one's customer base instead of expanding it!? Urrgghhh!
ReplyDelete"J.Crew is mentally retarded when they come up with this stuff."
ReplyDelete*This* is by far the rudest thing said in this thread.
How do you expect people to be sensitive to your "larger" size when you are this insensitive?
There were several long articles published last year about Ann Taylor's similar decision to no longer carry larger sizes in store. Obviously, I am not looking for them, so I have not noted if they are still following this policy. I have noticed that they carry xxs in some items, but that size is not in the stores I visit, so I assume they have not widened their in store range. Their reasoning was that the sizes were not selling well and are more expensive to produce as they required more fabric and new patterns to be cut. Sometimes such calls are truely just business decisions.
ReplyDeleteLike I said earler, I have many times been a size outlier and am ok with the ordering/trying/returning thing. I order most of the time from J Crew anyway because my local store's selection is less than steller and honesly, a lot of J Crew's clothing really can't withstand the shopwear. I have to do the same often with Talbots as the one store I have left within easy driving distance (I used to have three!) is so intent on carrying a range of sizes that the selections in each of those sizes is very poor.
rynetta- I mean "uppity" by the fact several posters are taking J.Crew's decision not to carry their specific size as some sort of a personal attack rather than what it is, a business decision.;
ReplyDeleteI think vanity sizing also plays into this. In most stores I'm between a 0 and a 2. In J.Crew I am easily in 00 in a lot of items. That can mean their clothes are running as much as 2 full sizes big, making a J.Crew 14 equivalent to anyone else's 16 or 18, which are not sizes typically stocked at these types of stores.
Size 14 may be the average size for for women in America, but it might not be that common for the average Jcrew customer, for whatever reason. Personally, if I was a new Size 12/14 customer unable to try or see clothes in my size within the store, I would have be definitely discouraged & turned-off with any further exploration of the brand. And frankly it would have also given the impression that JC is just another brand that does not cater to the avg size woman.
ReplyDeleteIn the interest of business, they are alienating are large majority of women & reinforcing the voice such people like "S".
Having said that, size 12/14 customers are not the only group getting the short end of the stick. Petite customers rarely get the opportunity to try clothes on in their sizing either. And if the statics are correct, the avg woman is petite. So shouldn't they also carry a petite section as well?
On a side note, Commenter "S", please keep your hurtful comments to yourself. You obviously knew this would be not taken well, especially since you made your account private. That's all.
@MrsADS, I googled it. Reports say Mobama is anywhere from 10-12.
ReplyDelete@Blakemdjohns, it was a figure of speech, maybe not the best at the hour it was written, but it wasn't meant to offend, just to make a point. I apologize!
PS- I'm actually a size 2. I just think it's ridiculous for them to do what they do.
I feel quite strongly about this and have written about this before on this blog and my own blog. As a size 12/14 I do find it upsetting when my size is not carried in store. Anthro. Ann Taylor, Loft are the same way---14 is never available.
ReplyDeleteThis means I have to pay to try on clothes which I am just not happy about, which in turn means I do not order as often. Yes I know I could order in store with no cost but still, if I have to return the item(s) there *is* a cost--my time and gas, again just to try an item on. That's two trips to the store, one to order, one to return.
As for the comment for people to diet so they can live longer, please, let's not be this mean.
I just want to add that it's often very difficult to find Size 12 tops. It's my belief that they only stock a certain number, and are sold out quickly, since it's a very popular size. I'm very particular on how my pants fit me, so it's rare that I buy pants from anywhere but Buckle & the Limited.
ReplyDeleteI have found JC's pants to be mostly unflattering in the bottom area. Not to say I can't find a size that fits, just that their cuts rarely look right on me.
I do agree that shopworn clothes are real turnoff. That's why I also shop online usually. I also completely agree that they should waive FS & shipping costs for items & sizes not stocked in store. It's only fair, right? I guess that is the point. This is a business decision, not a popularity contest.
http://www.mybodygallery.com/
ReplyDeleteThis is an interesting site, it's good to get an idea of what we look like, on other people.
Jewels,
ReplyDeleteI don't get it. What is the point of point of the site? I mean we all know what we look like, without having to post a full length picture of ourselves on the internet. Are you suppose to superimpose our face on other bodies or get critics/comments from others?
I just don't get it, unless this is a support group of some sort.
There is no excuse for the insensitive comments and I would certainly contact the store manager and J.Crew corporate to let them know if that happened to me.
ReplyDeleteIt is unfortunate that not all sizes are carried in every store but I have little sympathy ordering from where I live - a long day's drive to the closest retail store - as there is zero ability to try *anything* on and you don't have ready access to the retail-only offerings. Being in the middle of the range my size often sells out before making it to sale so I often buy at full price or miss items all together. Sometimes a little extra effort is required to get the things we want and sometimes we just can't have everything we desire either. Is that unfair?
I have a large bust and need to tailor almost every suit jacket or blouse from every retailer, not to mention dresses that have volumes on the bottom if I buy to fit my top, which I have to do if I want to look decent. Why can't J.Crew offer clothes that fit women with a large bust but are proportionally smaller everywhere else? It's a rhetorical question of course. Some of the other retailers where I shop will tailor for free but the clothes are also more expensive.
I believe I have realistic expectations of retailers, especially in recession times when they are striving to maintain profitability. J.Crew is run by humans who are trying to manage for profit and certainly can't get everything right for everybody.
JS: Thanks for clarifying! I don't take it personally, I just wish that I could purchase items like the in-store only color version of the no. 2 pencil skirt!
ReplyDeleteI don't want to draw attention to s and realize I'm doing that but I just can not let such a false statement stand in case others reading this believe it.
ReplyDeleteThere are a lot of very popular lies that people believe that end up physically hurting the well being and life expectancy of a lot of people.
Study after study has shown that dieting is one of the very worst things you can do for your health. Statisticly speaking dieting does not work, ever, for anyone, and results in drastic yoyoing that sabotages your equilibrium and damages your health.
Life expectancies for slightly overweight people is greater than life expectancies for those thinner than "ideal" or for those "ideal". Corellation is of course not causation and people aren't yet sure what the causation is - but if you are concerned about life expectancy s, I suggest you put on a couple of pounds.
Of course, I don't think s is concerned about life expectancy either for herself or for others but about shaming people for an entirely cosmetic issue.
On the actual topic of the post - I wish at the very least that there were stores that catered to people of all sizes. Not every store has to cater to everyone but it shouldn't be so hard to find a store that carries size 14 or 22 or 00p. That these are very rare seems to indicate that the market is not being run efficiently or someone would be making money of the unsatisfied consumers. But a look at history tells us that markets are often not efficient and often prioritize prejudice over making money.
I just caught s's comment which, unfortunately exemplifies a very pervasive misconception that overweight people are unhealthy.
ReplyDeleteRegarding life length, the scientific data shows that the following order is correct:
overweight (BMI 25-29.9) live the longest
then "normal" weight (BMI 18.5-24.9) live next longest
then underweight (BMI <18.5)
then obese (BMI >30)
And when the obese category is broken down into mild, moderate, severe, etc, you find that people who are mildly obese suffer few or no more health problems than "normal" weight people. It is very possible to be big and healthy, believe it or not. I am just one example. I am near the top end of the overweight category but have zero health problems. BP, sugar, cholesterol, heart rate, etc are all well within the desired ranges. I walk a lot, take stairs, eat healthy foods, etc. I don't smoke, drink, or do drugs. I get plenty of sleep.
So s, if your concern is life length, instead of encouraging Sarah to lose weight, you should encourage her to stay her current weight and perhaps you should gain weight.
Victoria, I was composing my post when you submitted yours (it took me a while to write mine), so I didn't see it! But I'm very happy to see that you too have cut through the anti-overweight hype and you know the real truth. Thank you for your post.
ReplyDeleteUgh, my posts have been removed. Let me at least post the link to the scientific data that backs up Victoria's claim that overweight people live the longest. So advice to lose weight for health reasons isn't always valid.
ReplyDeleteWhy are my posts being removed? I'm not criticizing other posters. It's important for people to know facts to stop the pervasive prejudice.
ReplyDeletedata which shows that overweight people live the longest
s @ 7:43,
ReplyDeletewow, that was bitchy.
I am on the other end of jcrew sizing (we petites have never been able to try on in store, so we are used to it), and I still think this policy is absolutely retarded.
It's also a bad business decision, since the majority of women in this country wear clothes in the low double digits. But I guess jcrew, and some posters here, think "fatties" should only shop at dress barn and walmart.
I assume it's a business decision not to carry certain sizes in-store, but regardless, what the SA said was inexcusable. Sarah, please contact the store manager and explain what happened and express your desire that the employee is properly dealt with. Hey, if you are uncomfortable doing so, I will! That behavior and attitude are completely inappropriate from anyone, much less someone in the "service" industry. It makes me so mad thinking about what kind of person says that. How difficult is it to say she doesn't stock that size and offer to order it for you on the red phone?!
ReplyDeleteI'm somewhat indifferent to the issue of sizing at J.Crew (can see both sides of it), but I'm not surprised if they don't offer some styles in larger sizes. I'm sure some full-figured women could pull it off with panache, but those paillette short-shorts that were in the catalog? With my (~size M) thighs, there is NO WAY I'd be caught dead in them! Egads.
ReplyDeleteI think that the problem is that the SAs are apparently shown that it is ok to be completely rude to a customer looking for items in a size 14. I am truly appalled at how the SA acted in this case and I would report it to Mickey immediately.
ReplyDeleteAs far as not carrying 14s... they don't carry anything in my size either (tall) so, whatever. Buying online is better in terms of selection and merch not being shopworn so... I'm ok with it I guess.
I don't mean to offend anyone, but I wanted to add two further things-
ReplyDelete1- as far as I've noticed, and what I'm complaining about, at least, is ot that size 14 isn't in store. It also isn't available on most products. The skirts often cut at a 12, and so do the pants. It's not just, oh, boohoo, I have to order online, but, I can't order at all.
2- Obviously, I understand the same frustration at the other end of the spectrum. But you also have to realize that this isn't just about ordering online, it's being given the impression that you are not wanted as a customer because of size. Whether it's business or not, it's still there, because that is what curviery/larger/whatever women are told everyday by society. I'm getting irate because of how this fits in with a larger matrix of messaging that leads me to believe, every time I hear stuff like this, that it is because I'm not good enough, whether they decided this at JCrew or not. You can't deny it's there. And yes, there is skinny/small discrimination as well. I have a friend who is always asked whether she is anorexic. But I really think it feels different when you are at the larger end of things, because we implicity understand that thin (but not too thin) is good, but slightly larger is pretty much the end of the universe. So when I hear yet another store doesn't stock my size, what am I supposed to think?
Sorry for the rant. I get really frustrated here, sometimes, because everyone seems to be quite tiny...please don't assume your experience to be the same as mine, because it's really not.
I have repeatedly requested, in their online surveys,that J Crew carry Size 14 in their tailored ("suiting") dresses, which they seem to do less and less often. The fact that they carry 14, 16, and "XL" in their t-shirts and bridesmaids' dresses, tells me they know there's a market for their "larger-sized" products, so - what the heck? I hope they do better when they arrive in my native Canada later this year-I don't even set foot in their stores anymore, when I visit the U.S. My six-figure lawyers' salary and I look elsewhere!
ReplyDeleteGuess what? Eileen Fisher has built a very successful business serving a variety of sizes! Her styling isn't for everyone, but neither is the pair of orange silk puffy bloomers I saw (again) at lunch today at JC.
ReplyDeleteAs a fellow non-tiny person, I agree with you, Amanda. I do understand that it's quite offensive and hurtful for someone to be told to 'eat a cheeseburger' or whatever other crazy things people say to thin folk. ... But until one has felt disapproving eyes moving over you in a store, at a restaurant, on the street -- and you know what they're thinking, and you try to pretend you don't see it -- well, until you've felt that, you may just not understand.
ReplyDeleteI love y'all -- teeny and non-teeny! -- and am so glad I found you on the Internets. :P
i don't know about anyone else but i have not seen much vanity sizing in the larger j.crew sizes. my 14 "perfect fit" shirts fit the same way as comparable sizes at the other stores i shop in. i don't remember noticing the 14 wasn't sold in stores until i started needing it in the summer of 2008 and was, politely, told they were no longer going to carry that size in store but they could place an order for me on the red phone.
ReplyDeletenow i mainly go in the store to get an idea of what the items look like, the color selection, and fabric before making an online purchase. since i already have to order online for tall/long pants it doesn't really make that big of a difference to me.
I'm halfway through the comments but wanted to add something while I'm thinking of it. Sorry if repeating...
ReplyDeleteI'm a 6P-8P and have to order my clothes online if I want petite. I don't think JC is saying that short people are embarrassing (tho I do think cutting out size 14 sounds bad...I'm not sure what the reasoning there is). I'm annoyed that I have to order and that I can't try on in store, but if petites don't sell as much, then fine, it's another problem I have to deal with being short. I would so appreciate free shipping and free returns, though (Banana did that before petites hit their B&Ms). And I'd especially like for JC to allow petites and any size not sold B&M to return final sale items since there's no way we could have ever tried those on. Harumph.
Went into the store today, and made an effort to look for size 14. Didn't see anything available in any of the tops. Only found a couple of Sale Pants & Shirts; which were probably return items.
ReplyDeleteI have a hard time finding Size 12 Tops, I don't know what I would do if they decided my size was too "unusual" to carry.
My B&M store in Syracuse hasn't carried size 14 for the last 4 years at least. I hate going in there when the only things I can look at are the scarves and jewelry. As a 5'10 well-proportioned woman, size 12-14, it does make me feel unwelcome. On the other hand, I have to buy most of my clothes online anyways since I am a Tall. It's hard to make everyone happy and included, I guess. Shopping online is more convenient for me anyways...Not sure if there is ANY store that carries 14T in stock!
ReplyDeleteI have 3 or 4 Super 120s suits in 14 and 16. Navy, grey pinstripe and black if anyone is interested! I think the pants are favorite fit and the jackets are 2-button. Also have a wool crepe one in a grey-ish color.
ReplyDeleteI'm proud of J.Crew for offering the suiting sizes online. I lost a family member a few years back and I gained 40lbs. I wouldn't have had chic interview wear or work pants if it wasn't for J.Crew.
The salesperson who called 14 "unusual" probably has no concept of sizes. I bet if you saw my picture without knowing my hight you'd think I was something other than a 10 or 12. I've had associates grab me size 8's and just hand them over guessing thats what I am. Don't sweat it (their ignorance, that is).
As a long standing J Crew fan and also a size 12/14 I have to say that it frustrates me to no end that B&M stores do not carry XL's or size 14 (I also do not remember a time when they did carry either size??) I have a hard time believing they do not sell well as they are always the 1st size to sell out online. I also have turned to other retailers that carry a much larger size range and have curbed my Crew spend significanly over the past few months- mostly due to lackluster recent rollouts... So overall bad decision J Crew!
ReplyDeletejbird said: "Really? How rude of you to say. Take your comments with you and LEAVE."
ReplyDeleteNo. I have a right to voice my opinion. Even though this is a private forum, what I stated was in no way malicious.
Besides it's not like I don't sympathize or empathize with the OP. I mean I hate how have to size up for certain men's clothes at H&M or that I have to size down at Banana Republic.
Yet, I still realize that 1) I'm not their normal customer and 2) I'm not likely their ideal audience.
At the end of the day there are a number of options one can take to accommodate their own needs whether it be to email j.crew daily to put your size in store, shop somewhere else, or visit a tailor.
Dieting is just one option. If one is happy at their weight then so be it.
That's all that was meant by my comment, and to me that was another easy solution.
I mean dieting doesn't automatically mean one is condoning the asinine behavior of a few that feel that, say, women should be no bigger than a size 6.
So please stop for a moment before you place your bias on me.
if you want to read some articles about sizing and business in the retail industry take a look at this blog http://www.fashion-incubator.com/blog/
ReplyDeletedig into the archives she has some really interesting articles about sizing and why stores end up with exactly the issues we are discussing
There lots of articles on the size 14 phenemenon. Here's one: http://articles.latimes.com/2009/mar/01/image/ig-size1
ReplyDeleteI've read the WSJ article some people referenced, too. The gist of it is that the lack of size 14 in stores is a catch-22. Retailers don't stock them because not as many people buy them, and not as many people buy them because the retailers aren't meeting their needs, which reaffirms retailers' initial posit that there isn't a market for size 14s. Another premise of the WSJ article was that when you deal with women who are more overweight, you start to run into problems because everyone stores fat in different areas, and on overweight persons this is more pronounced.
I can understand how it's frustrating to not be able to find your size in stores. If it's any consolation, I have a hard time finding pants. I guess I'm just shaped weird because I often find that one size is too small in the waistband, but the next size up is too big everywhere but the waistband!
FYI: Was in my local JC Factory store and there were 14s in almost every item I looked at. Of course, there were no 8Ps or any petites at all for that matter. So for those of you looking for 12-14, you might try the factory store. I realize that's not what the thread is about, but I thought I'd mention it.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to pose a question to the OP and others who take immediate offense to the decision not to carry a certain size in-store: Putting aside the unfortunate way the SA handled the situation and assusming for a moment that this is purely a business decision based on profitability stats (which these decisions usually are in the industry), do you believe JCrew should reverse its decision and sustain losses to accomodate the relatively small number of size 14 consumers (as explained by others, numerically speaking more women fall on either side of 14) and avoid offending you? This is an honest question and I can see arguments made on both sides. I could see JCrew making the decision the take a hit to PnL to avoid the appearance of discrimination, but at the end of the day JCrew is in fact a business. Thoughts?
ReplyDeleteI want to ditto something that Victoria wrote because it might have gotten lost among all of the posts and it is really interesting and possibly counterintuitive.
ReplyDeleteThere's a pervasive misconception that that extra fat (beyond some arbitrary standard) is bad for you. But Victoria got it right, when it comes to life expectancy, people who are in the overweight category (BMI 25-29.9) actually live longer than people in the normal weight and underweight categories. In fact, from longest to shortest life, the order is overweight, normal weight, underweight, obese.
JAMA article
I also want to add that when the obese category is broken down (as it should be because no other category has a 20+ point BMI spread and one could not reasonably group together 200 lb women with a 500 lb women) it turns out that mildly obese people have few or no extra health problems compared to normal weight people.
It's a shame that people who find fat so distasteful are allowed to justify their superficial prejudice with faux science.
Dianna, your assumption may not be correct. Maybe it's not a decision based on profit. There is so much insane prejudice based on weight, it's hard to not to accept the possibility that this particular store's willful absence of 14s was based on prejudice.
ReplyDeletePerhaps the store created an unwelcome environment for the size 14 customers. Perhaps they didn't stock enough 14s and the size 14 customers stopped coming to the store, or perhaps the store clerks and/or manager made the size 14 customers feel uncomfortable.
Imagine for a moment a size 14 customer trying on an undersized size 14 garment, which by J Crew's own size charts should really be labeled 12 or even a 10, and when the customer comes out of the dressing room and tells the clerk the garment was too small the clerk gets a snarky look on her face, takes the garment from the customer, and walks off. Even if the treatment had nothing to do with the customer's size, due to past experience with blatant prejudice it's likely she'll interpret it that way.
Have you ever stopped shopping at a store because you feel like the clerks are unacceptably b*tchy? I have, plenty of times. It's one of many reasons why I prefer to shop online.
I am also turning my dollars and efforts to larger size range retailers, namely TLB. But I will shop JCG for certain things, namely the cashmere (on deep sale) and shoes.
ReplyDeleteAs for Sarah's situation, I hope she reported the SA. There's no excuse for foul service.